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Forums > All about Katharine > Katharine Chat
Subject: Why isnt Kat's cd sales better
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05/13/2007 1:43 AM Alert 
Posted By Nmore54 on 05/13/2007 1:20 AM
Posted By Nmore54 on 05/13/2007 1:09 AM
Posted By trsf on 05/13/2007 1:01 AM
Regarding the time it takes to make a good album - weren't the Beatles putting out 3-4 albums a year in the mid-1960s?


I don't recall, although I doubt it was quite that many. However, the Beatles are in a class all there own so I don't think I'd dare compare them to anyone else. I can't think of any band that was as prolific as the Beatles, and in such a short time.


I should add, that you have to remember the Beatles wrote all their own music and didn't have to colaborate with other artists. There were four of them doing that. They used to pop out songs in a matter of hours (honestly!), which is obviously something Kat doesn't have the ability to do.


Also, they would often come to the studio with just snippets of ideas and Sir George Martin would help them develop them into full blown songs.  Martin, IMO, is rarely given the credit he deserves in the success of the Beatles.
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05/13/2007 2:15 AM Alert 
Seeing the references to the Beatles--it makes me wish the concept of concept albums would come back into vogue again...especially for Kat's future albums. For those of you who may not understand what a concept album is (or was): It's an album that has a particular theme or idea behind it...and the songs all relate to one another to tell more or less a story. Frank Sinatra started that trend in pop music back in the 50's. He took it to high artistic levels too. And then the Beatles were the first to use it in Rock later on. Though some argue it was Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys who did it first with their 'Pet Sounds' album. Lots of other artists have done the same thing in ensuing decades in just about every genre.

The reason I bring up concept albums is because it went by the wayside in pop music at one point for whatever reason. Maybe it's because a lot of artists just didn't or don't have enough to say or have any good ideas to create an album with a cohesive theme. Most artists just pull together a grab bag of songs and try to make it work with what they have. It's no wonder so many pop albums seem so disjointed or unfocused in recent years. Though it's nothing new that pop/rock albums have song fillers due to lack of good material. To me, though, an artist who has the creative freedom to put together an album with true meaning--and yet doesn't bother--is just sheer creative laziness. We all know if Kat had the time and resources, she'd probably bring something like this to an album. She just has too much to say...and a brilliant artistic mind suited to do that kind of thing besides.

Seeing that double album feature mentioned above reminds me of Christina Aguilera trying to get away with the same thing recently on her 'Back to Basics' album. While it got critical reviews, I think some people found it a bit confusing on what she wanted to be there. The first disc was more contemporary material...and then the second disc went into more neo-big band sounds (or a hybrid of that with urban sounds). Even Kat said in an interview about 'BtB' that she preferred the first disc better. Not many warmed to 'Candyman' either on TRL or the singles charts.

While creative risks like that can be good to please a wider demographic--I'm not sure if any artist can get away with it successfully today. You have to be stuck in a box, unfortunately. It's too bad audiences out there can't be more open to an album that provides you two flip sides to an artist. I guess older people are more willing...but younger don't seem to warm up to that kind of thing.

Going back to concept albums--I think THAT would be a great thing for Kat to do on her next project so the album can have more of a singular vision. I said recently that I think Kat and Babyface will likely work together on her second album. That is, if Kat has her way she will. Having an album that's all songs co-written between the two of them (with a unifying theme) would be something magical and appealing to just about every age group. The only drawback is Babyface turning up the heat in the studio. And I mean that literally if you read that article recently where Kat complained about it when working on 'EiG' with the guy. If she could tolerate that...I think right there would be the remedy to what we're all lamenting right now with her debut album.
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05/13/2007 2:36 AM Alert 
Kat's album is great, as far as I'm concerned, and as a new artist, her album sales at this point is good if not fantanstic. So I guess the real question to us McPhans is why most of the AI5 alumi sells better than she does. In my opinion, it's mostly because her CD is out of character with what people associate her during the AI5 season, and maybe the mix genre of it. Rock and Country music usually get a easy start, so I'm not surprised that Chris and Kellie's CDs are doing well, especially when they are consistent with their persona in AI5.

But we should always be optimistic! Remember, this debut album only has one single yet. Over It has sold 400,000+ digital downloads, that's not bad at all for a first single. And I think most of us would agree it's not the best song in the album, but rather a catchy easy-for-the-ear lure, inspite if all that, Kat's album still reach gold.
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05/13/2007 7:53 AM Alert 
We really can't compare anyone or anything to the great Beatles.  Their music defied all practical applications and smashed all records of anything that came before them. 

In terms of the time factor, artists like to take it slowly in the name of perfection.  Usually recording is done at the rate of one track per month, taking a good year to finish a twelve track album.  Each track varies with the ease at which an artist masters certain genres.  One track can take hours or up to about three days to complete.  It also depends on the producer(s).  It is a known fact that Babyface is very quick because of his experience and expertise in the studio.  Sir George Martin was also mentioned in this thread.  He could actually have been considered the 5th Beatle.
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05/13/2007 10:47 AM Alert 
Touching a bit on what greg was talking about,  the theme album and the fact that the album as a whole has dropped in importance tremendously since the advent of the digitalization of music transfer.  There was an AP wire story in a local paper Friday putting the blame of the collapse of album sales at the feet of the record industry.

Specifically, this article cited the record companies decision to stop selling physical singles, to extract more full album sales from consumers wallets, as one of the key components that led to the proliferation of Napster  and all of the illegal digital sources that  spawned following  its demise.  The market for physical digital singles was actually on the rise in the twelve months prior to  the point  when the labels decided to start phasing them out for business (read: profit)  reasons.  So in effect the record labels helped push music lovers toward digital singles, both legit  and illegal.   The record labels figured that if they could remove the overhead cost, which is almost identical to a full albums overhead,  then the extra profits for singles sold digitally vis a vis a physical single sales would help boost the  bottom line.

The article talked about the pressure the industry is bringing to bear on  Apple to increase the price of singles at the iTunes store in the hopes of making album purchases, both digital and physical, more tempting financially to customers would  steer  them back toward purchase of the entire album.

The article quoted Ciara lamenting how her album was constructed like a book and the people who bought her hit single were really only getting a single chapter of the whole story that the album attempted to tell. 

But reading this here about theme albums and their demise reminded me of this article and might explain why the artists are moving toward albums that are more pastiches of songs with disparate quality and sounds rather  than created integrated albums  with a single  underlying theme.
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05/13/2007 11:04 AM Alert 
Posted By Nmore54 on 05/12/2007 11:53 PM
Posted By GB3535 on 05/12/2007 1:25 PM
Hey, thanks for being so understanding. I want the best for Katharine too, you gotta remember!!!! Sometimes, I have a tendency to come across a wee too strong.

I listen to everything, so the genre thing isn't too much an issue with me, but I think her voice really comes through to perfection on some of the slower songs.... But, I fully realize that those are not the type of songs that mainly sell anymore.

Yeah, I tend to forget that this album was put out super fast as albums go..... and if given the normal amount of time an artist has to put out an album next time around, it may well turn into a CLASSIC!!!!


I think that the VERY short time Kat had to put out this CD is a major factor to be considered. Remember too, that she was very unhappy with the songs the label wanted her to put on the CD originally because she said they sounded like everyone else's and there was nothing at all unique about them. They sent her to Virginia Beach to work on alternative songs which I guess she was happier with in the end. Still, she put out this album in LESS THAN HALF the usual time and in that respect I happen to think it's a terrific first CD. There's not one song on it that I dislike and several that I love. I understand your point of view but I think it's way too critical considering the circumstances. Still, debate is healthy and opens our minds to things we might not have considered.



I'm going to have to take issue with that statement.  Every Engineer-Producer-Artist works at a different pace.  There have been plenty of CLASSIC albums recorded in days; and the same holds true of some classics that have taken years to produce.  Time spent on an album doesn't always translate into a good release or greatness.  Sometimes it does, but many times it does not.

I'm kind of of the belief that if you do too many takes of each cut, it ruins the freshness of the track  Granted, every note probably won't be perfect; but what you lose in perfection, you gain with a fresh sounding track.  For example the classic album from Deep Purple, "Machine Head" (with the classic 'Smoke on the Water") was recorded in the poorest of conditions in a rented (non-heated, in the winter)hotel in 3 days!  35 years after it's release, it's still holds up remarkably well.  More recently the band the Black Keys recorded their 2nd release (Thickfreakness) in a marathon recording session that lasted 18 hours... and the CD was done.  On the other hand, albums like Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" took forever to complete.  All three are excellent releases, and they all took different times and approaches to the recording process.

Since Katharine is still new to the recording end of the business, I think her best approach would be to find a sole, sympathetic producer or engineer that shares her musical vision and passion for the chosen songs.  The Doors had Paul A. Rothchild, the Beatles, Sir George Martin... and the list goes on.  I really don't believe that this new way of producing records by multiple producers and different session players works well for someone just starting out.  She needs a strong, yet sympathic partner in the studio to tell her what is working and what is not.  If she can find the right mentor, the sky is the limit for her as she has yet tapped into a tenth of her potential.
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05/13/2007 11:18 AM Alert 
Posted By CRB on 05/13/2007 10:47 AM
Touching a bit on what greg was talking about,  the theme album and the fact that the album as a whole has dropped in importance tremendously since the advent of the digitalization of music transfer.  There was an AP wire story in a local paper Friday putting the blame of the collapse of album sales at the feet of the record industry.

Specifically, this article cited the record companies decision to stop selling physical singles, to extract more full album sales from consumers wallets, as one of the key components that led to the proliferation of Napster  and all of the illegal digital sources that  spawned following  its demise.  The market for physical digital singles was actually on the rise in the twelve months prior to  the point  when the labels decided to start phasing them out for business (read: profit)  reasons.  So in effect the record labels helped push music lovers toward digital singles, both legit  and illegal.   The record labels figured that if they could remove the overhead cost, which is almost identical to a full albums overhead,  then the extra profits for singles sold digitally vis a vis a physical single sales would help boost the  bottom line.

The article talked about the pressure the industry is bringing to bear on  Apple to increase the price of singles at the iTunes store in the hopes of making album purchases, both digital and physical, more tempting financially to customers would  steer  them back toward purchase of the entire album.

The article quoted Ciara lamenting how her album was constructed like a book and the people who bought her hit single were really only getting a single chapter of the whole story that the album attempted to tell. 

But reading this here about theme albums and their demise reminded me of this article and might explain why the artists are moving toward albums that are more pastiches of songs with disparate quality and sounds rather  than created integrated albums  with a single  underlying theme.



Yeah..... I've noticed this trend as well.  I don't think it's such a good thing for most artists, or the way I listen to music, but I've seen it.  I like to experience a whole album, to find out the artist's vision and to hear the entire story.  I know I'm probably in the minority there....because I don't really care to listen to singles much.  And sometimes I don't particularly like any one song, but if I listen to the whole CD, and understand the artists vision, the CD really starts growing on me.  I wish I had an answer for this situation, as I think the trend will continue.... at least for the artists that depend on hit singles. 

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05/13/2007 2:53 PM Alert 
Posted By Radiohead on 05/09/2007 2:56 AM
and im sick of idol fans putting down her sales especially bitter elliott and taylor fans

I kinda agree with that...many idol fans have harsh grudges against her for some reason I can't figure out yet, lol. Many idol fans, even if they liked her music, wouldn't buy her cd because they for some stupid bitter reason don't like her as a person.

not to bash or anything, but I have seen many elliott fans be really mean about her... I cant figure out why lol.
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05/13/2007 5:44 PM Alert 
Posted By GB3535 on 05/13/2007 11:04 AM

Since Katharine is still new to the recording end of the business, I think her best approach would be to find a sole, sympathetic producer or engineer that shares her musical vision and passion for the chosen songs.... I really don't believe that this new way of producing records by multiple producers and different session players works well for someone just starting out.  She needs a strong, yet sympathic partner in the studio to tell her what is working and what is not.  If she can find the right mentor, the sky is the limit for her as she has yet tapped into a tenth of her potential.


Maybe that's why a lot of people would like to see her team up with David Foster again. I don't know anythng about the music business and I'm not making any pronouncements about the current album, just saying a KM/DF collaboration would probably be something I'd like. I don't think she's likely to do it though.
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05/13/2007 6:01 PM Alert 
Posted By groucho on 05/13/2007 5:44 PM
Posted By GB3535 on 05/13/2007 11:04 AM

Since Katharine is still new to the recording end of the business, I think her best approach would be to find a sole, sympathetic producer or engineer that shares her musical vision and passion for the chosen songs.... I really don't believe that this new way of producing records by multiple producers and different session players works well for someone just starting out.  She needs a strong, yet sympathic partner in the studio to tell her what is working and what is not.  If she can find the right mentor, the sky is the limit for her as she has yet tapped into a tenth of her potential.


Maybe that's why a lot of people would like to see her team up with David Foster again. I don't know anythng about the music business and I'm not making any pronouncements about the current album, just saying a KM/DF collaboration would probably be something I'd like. I don't think she's likely to do it though.


Yes, me too.  David Foster was all but volunteering his services to her, and yet she went down another path.  This is my preference, but I think Mr. Foster would make the ideal Producer/Mentor for Katharine.  He's strong willed, yet sympathetic.  And the guy sure knows how to craft good albums.
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05/13/2007 6:48 PM Alert 
yep, I feel the same way .  Katharine needs this type of expert direction, just as the Beatles had one in George Martin.  David Foster knows there are millions of us out here who are anxiously awaiting a real Katharine McPhee album.  David would probably be amenable to this undertaking in the future.  The challenge is to convince Kat.
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05/13/2007 7:15 PM Alert 
I feel like I'm being pulled in two about this, because Katharine grew up wanting to be Mariah, and she has her own ideas of what she wants to do, so I'm always cycling back and forth between wanting to support her vision for herself, and just wanting what I want. Here we are at the classic dilemma again. Like she said in that radio interview (more or less, I'm leaving out references to Simon's underwear), Open Toes would never have got her to the Kodak Theatre but Rainbow won't get her to the top of the pop charts. So what IS actually a "real katharine McPhee album"? Nate Hill(s) and Babyface and the Neptunes? Recycled Ella Fitzgerald and Streisand? And who dug up "Me" and "Mary Jane" ? I don't know if I have any preference for style, author, or genre. As someone in here pointed out, to make me happy, just give me songs where I'm hearing Katharine and not a lot of studio produced filler and coverup. I don't care if she sings with a guitar or an orchestra or a synthesizer as long as I can hear her.  Here's where I usually go into a rant about silly lyrics but I'll spare you this time.
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05/13/2007 7:51 PM Alert 
Posted By groucho on 05/13/2007 7:15 PM
I feel like I'm being pulled in two about this, because Katharine grew up wanting to be Mariah, and she has her own ideas of what she wants to do, so I'm always cycling back and forth between wanting to support her vision for herself, and just wanting what I want. Here we are at the classic dilemma again. Like she said in that radio interview (more or less, I'm leaving out references to Simon's underwear), Open Toes would never have got her to the Kodak Theatre but Rainbow won't get her to the top of the pop charts. So what IS actually a "real katharine McPhee album"? Nate Hill(s) and Babyface and the Neptunes? Recycled Ella Fitzgerald and Streisand? And who dug up "Me" and "Mary Jane" ? I don't know if I have any preference for style, author, or genre. As someone in here pointed out, to make me happy, just give me songs where I'm hearing Katharine and not a lot of studio produced filler and coverup. I don't care if she sings with a guitar or an orchestra or a synthesizer as long as I can hear her.  Here's where I usually go into a rant about silly lyrics but I'll spare you this time.



I think you are a mindreader!!!!  While I listen to pop music frequently, that's the main thing I have about the genre; it's more about the production and overlaying of sounds than the singer.  Given the right producer, material and musicians, almost anybody could put out a credible pop album.  But a voice like Katharine's doesn't come along every day and it seems to me that is what should be showcased on h