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Subject: One very upset fan (Comments on the "Fallen Angel" photoshoot)
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Username: Pheenomenon
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09/11/2007 9:30 PM Alert 
Well Matt, from your avatar it looks like you were actually in Katharine's divine presence. What does anything we say matter? You've got us beat.
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09/11/2007 10:03 PM Alert 
You encouraged others to speak up about Kat when they feel she has made "mistakes" and when she is "wrong." I'll take you up on your offer, only not about her but about you. (I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a hypocrite, after all.) Actually, I'll mostly just ask a bunch of rhetorical questions. You and only you can determine if you've made mistakes.

OK so you mention that Kat has made numerous mistakes. That she has repeatedly not been true to herself, whatever that truth is. What are you basing your conclusion on -- from where comes this absolute assuredness that you know what Kat is supposed to be? Is it possible your conclusion is drawn on limited facts? Or you have chosen to disregard observations that do not support a preconceived conclusion that you made solely based on what you saw on Idol? If she does something 5 times that go against your conclusion, is your conclusion still correct? 10 times? 20 times? At what point do you say, I was wrong in my prematurely made conclusion?

Just because you see one side of a person first, does it mean that side represents that person? What if you had seen the other side first? Ar they suddenly a different person? You can only reconcile them be realizing that both sides are a part of that person. Let's say someone comes across as a nice guy poster, because his first posts are nice, pleasant, thougtful. Then the same poster makes a very opinionated and judgmental post. What is the true nature of that poster? The first one? The second one?

Goth, evil, Satanic. You associate these together. Why? In my experience, these "evil" goths have been better people - more tolerant for example - than the traditional, straight-laced types who mock and offend others perceived as weird or different.

Finally, I have yet to meet a person who has cleaned up their own life sufficiently to the point where they are entitled to start "cleaning Up" others' lives. You could be the first, or not. I wouldn't presume to know you. I subscribe to the principle that I live my life, you live your life, let others live theirs.

You have moved on, fine. Others are allowed to write their points of view, aren't they? Why are you getting pissed off?

Will I stop asking questions?

Ever?

At least momentarily?

Please make me stop?
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09/11/2007 11:03 PM Alert 
Many of us have an image of Kat, right or wrong, that we fell in love with.
And we tend to fight, tooth and nail, to protect this image.

It hurts when others tarnish it, and it stings all the worse when Kat herself does or says something
seemingly contrary to it.

Now this would be disastrous in a real-life personal relationship,
but it's perfectly harmless and normal to 'Idolize' a celebrity in this manner.

Matt is just a idealistic young man in love with a charming, beautiful, and talented woman,
just like the rest of us!

"She sings so magnificantly, it's just amazing" David Foster
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09/11/2007 11:23 PM Alert 
Posted By differentlife on 09/11/2007 10:03 PM
You encouraged others to speak up about Kat when they feel she has made "mistakes" and when she is "wrong." I'll take you up on your offer, only not about her but about you. (I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a hypocrite, after all.) Actually, I'll mostly just ask a bunch of rhetorical questions. You and only you can determine if you've made mistakes.

OK so you mention that Kat has made numerous mistakes. That she has repeatedly not been true to herself, whatever that truth is. What are you basing your conclusion on -- from where comes this absolute assuredness that you know what Kat is supposed to be? Is it possible your conclusion is drawn on limited facts? Or you have chosen to disregard observations that do not support a preconceived conclusion that you made solely based on what you saw on Idol? If she does something 5 times that go against your conclusion, is your conclusion still correct? 10 times? 20 times? At what point do you say, I was wrong in my prematurely made conclusion?

Just because you see one side of a person first, does it mean that side represents that person? What if you had seen the other side first? Ar they suddenly a different person? You can only reconcile them be realizing that both sides are a part of that person. Let's say someone comes across as a nice guy poster, because his first posts are nice, pleasant, thougtful. Then the same poster makes a very opinionated and judgmental post. What is the true nature of that poster? The first one? The second one?

Goth, evil, Satanic. You associate these together. Why? In my experience, these "evil" goths have been better people - more tolerant for example - than the traditional, straight-laced types who mock and offend others perceived as weird or different.

Finally, I have yet to meet a person who has cleaned up their own life sufficiently to the point where they are entitled to start "cleaning Up" others' lives. You could be the first, or not. I wouldn't presume to know you. I subscribe to the principle that I live my life, you live your life, let others live theirs.

You have moved on, fine. Others are allowed to write their points of view, aren't they? Why are you getting pissed off?

Will I stop asking questions?

Ever?

At least momentarily?

Please make me stop?


Yowzaa, diff !  Chill baby, chill. Seriously, I am enjoying your non-media posts.

To Diehard: I really do appreciate your starting this topic because I like to see a diversity of opinions expressed and I believe opinions strongly felt, as yours clearly are, are what keeps a place like this active and interesting.

Perhaps the day will come when we all become of one mind on every  subject such that we we can simply  post an, "Amen."  or   in response to a position stated.  When and if that day comes, it truly will be a sad moment for us all. But until then, through the sometimes less than pretty process of sharing our thoughts, I'll continue to enjoy "suffering" the opinions of my fellow KMF members quite gladly.
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09/11/2007 11:29 PM Alert 
Everyone, as usual, can read whatever they want into this photoshoot. But, instead of making such a big deal out of "materialistic" choices that Kat makes, why not check out the article in "Latest News".

Katharine McPhee and ULTA Honor the Inspirational Achievements of Step Up Women's Network and Celebrate the Launch of YouAreMyInspiration.org

This is the Kat we all feel we know and definitely, love! Art is very subjective and personal.....so, to each his own! Katharine is an artist and I'm of the opinon that she sees her photoshoots as an artistic outlet much like singing and acting. We all don't like every song that she's ever sung and we all probably won't love every movie that she's in!

I guess being the mother of two grown children has mellowed me a bit when it comes to watching Kat's efforts at finding her "artistic self". Just as I watched my children learn, grow and succeed (along with many times falling flat on their faces) I tend to watch Katharine through the same eyes.....with Love, Encouragement, Excitement and Hope for her future happiness.
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09/11/2007 11:55 PM Alert 

We have all been exposed to the "real" Kat and know her to be a kind, caring, energetic, giving, beautiful young lady of faith.  Because she is playing a "knocked up" hippie does not mean she will get pregnant before she's married, because she did the Stuff photo shoot does not mean she will be posing in Playboy, because she did this photo shoot doesn't mean she is "gothic" and "evil" and a dominatrix.  She is the same person always at the core but is playing a role when posing or performing. I can imagine her cutting up with the staff at this shoot and being goofy with it. 

I was seeing a therapist many years back after living many years believing that I was responsible for people's feelings. I remember him telling me that if he were in a room full of people and he put his feet up on the table one person might be offended, one might think it's funny, one might get angry and another might feel intimidated. Then he told me something I have never forgotten, "All I did was put my feet up on the table".  This was life-changing thought to me and was abolutely true in that I can't fulfill the desires or needs of anyone by my actions. All I can do is my best when it comes to loving and respecting those in my life and the rest is up to them.  

Kat will never be able to make you or anyone else happy all the time. I've been that "people pleaser" before and trust me, there is no way anyone can please everyone all the time.  If she tried she would just lose her mind. Kat has people in her life that she has accountability to that love her and know her personally and we are not them. We are outsiders looking in and do not have any insight into her thought processes unless she makes us privy so we would do well to stay clear of judging her.


in my mind the ultimate "Idol" contestant of the pre-lapsarian era, the one who most perfectly combined the demands for relentless emotive singing and the wow factor -- Katharine McPhee
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09/12/2007 12:01 AM Alert 
Posted By Moms4Kat on 09/11/2007 11:29 PM
Everyone, as usual, can read whatever they want into this photoshoot. But, instead of making such a big deal out of "materialistic" choices that Kat makes, why not check out the article in "Latest News".

Katharine McPhee and ULTA Honor the Inspirational Achievements of Step Up Women's Network and Celebrate the Launch of YouAreMyInspiration.org

This is the Kat we all feel we know and definitely, love! Art is very subjective and personal.....so, to each his own! Katharine is an artist and I'm of the opinon that she sees her photoshoots as an artistic outlet much like singing and acting. We all don't like every song that she's ever sung and we all probably won't love every movie that she's in!

I guess being the mother of two grown children has mellowed me a bit when it comes to watching Kat's efforts at finding her "artistic self". Just as I watched my children learn, grow and succeed (along with many times falling flat on their faces) I tend to watch Katharine through the same eyes.....with Love, Encouragement, Excitement and Hope for her future happiness.



Hi MOM!! and AMEN from another mother who has mellowed with age  

 


in my mind the ultimate "Idol" contestant of the pre-lapsarian era, the one who most perfectly combined the demands for relentless emotive singing and the wow factor -- Katharine McPhee
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09/12/2007 6:30 AM Alert 
i don't think kat made any bad choices here. there's nothing skanky about these pictures. if you fear the dark side and don't like anything about it, naturally you will feel like it's a bad choice. that's ok, that's your prerogative. i understand we're all judging kat here but i don't think anyone's making any personal attacks on kat -- it's just discussion of her work. i definitely think it's important to regard it as that and not get to upset with one another.


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09/12/2007 7:26 AM Alert 
Posted By kenneth on 09/12/2007 6:30 AM
i don't think kat made any bad choices here. there's nothing skanky about these pictures. if you fear the dark side and don't like anything about it, naturally you will feel like it's a bad choice. that's ok, that's your prerogative. i understand we're all judging kat here but i don't think anyone's making any personal attacks on kat -- it's just discussion of her work. i definitely think it's important to regard it as that and not get to upset with one another.

Exactly right Kenneth.

What on earth will we do if she takes on some real unsavory characters in future movies? After all, the best actors can be believable in all kinds of roles. It's all just part of being a talented actor/model. Even though I don't particularly care for these photos, I'm proud of the quality of Kat's modeling work.

"She sings so magnificantly, it's just amazing" David Foster
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09/12/2007 9:16 AM Alert 

my two cents.................I see this photo shoot as very exciting and Kat makes it look great. Her versatility in poses actually enhances her chances of landing bigger movie roles

 

DON'T BE UPSET "OVER IT"

MCPHEEVER RULES!!!!!


Some people come into our lives and quickly go.Others stay for a while and leave footprints on our hearts and we are never the same. That my friends is Katharine McPhee
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09/12/2007 9:17 AM Alert 
I know I'm really dating myself here, but all these discussions remind me what actress Shirley Jones went through when she accepted the role in the movie "Elmer Gantry". Early in her career, she too was known as the "good girl" and many of her fans couldn't accept her in a role as a prostitute. In reality it was one of her shining moments as she won the oscar for her performance.

I think along the way, Kat will probably too accept some roles that many of her fans will not particularly like, just as some may not like the fallen angel photoshoot. As long as Katharine has a good grip on who she is emotionally and spiritually, she should be able to pull off these roles without it affecting her everyday life.

I don't have a problem with it myself, but I can completely understand the feelings of the people who do.
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09/12/2007 10:57 AM Alert 
Reminds me of the father and son in Gentleman's Agreement (I'm really dating myself here), where they were pretending to be Jewish to understand the effects of prejudice first-hand. At one point someone said to the kid "Don't worry about what they say. It's not true. You're not really Jewish." And someone else wisely pointed out "And what if he were? Would they still have a right to make those comments?"  What if she did like to get a little freaky now and then? Not that we'd ever know, but I'm just saying. Would that be grounds for dumping our fandom? Because she'd still be the same girl who lends her name and time to charitable organizations and loves her parents and wants to settle down and have kids and all that good mainstream virtuous stuff. Don't mind me, I'm just curious.

katpedia.com - watch and listen to Idol, pre-Idol, and post-Idol McPhee performances all in one convenient location

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09/12/2007 11:36 AM Alert 
Posted By groucho on 09/12/2007 10:57 AM
Reminds me of the father and son in Gentleman's Agreement (I'm really dating myself here), where they were pretending to be Jewish to understand the effects of prejudice first-hand. At one point someone said to the kid "Don't worry about what they say. It's not true. You're not really Jewish." And someone else wisely pointed out "And what if he were? Would they still have a right to make those comments?"  What if she did like to get a little freaky now and then? Not that we'd ever know, but I'm just saying. Would that be grounds for dumping our fandom? Because she'd still be the same girl who lends her name and time to charitable organizations and loves her parents and wants to settle down and have kids and all that good mainstream virtuous stuff. Don't mind me, I'm just curious.



I think the question isn't what kat does behind closed doors but the image she projects publically.  The former is none of our business, the latter is what kat is putting out there and will be publically judged by. I think Kat has done a pretty good job of seperating those two and being aware of keeping everything as what she perceives as "good taste."

She didn't seem to be completely comfortable with Stuff or the album cover, and my concern is that she's able to make the tough choices so at the end of the day she is always comfortable.  A lot of this stuff isn't black and white... she may have obligations to others as she's an entertainment property of sort, and what's OK and what isn't OK isn't always clear. Nicole Kidman is on the cover of Vanity Fair right now ripping off her shirt and exposing herself in a bra. Kidman is highlighly respected, as is the magazine. I'm not sure I even know what I think is OK anymore.

I'm sure Kat will always be having to make some tough decisions throughout her career, being the attractive woman she is. I think she's done a pretty good job so far of handling these decisions.


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09/12/2007 12:16 PM Alert 
Posted By kenneth on 09/12/2007 11:36 AM
Posted By groucho on 09/12/2007 10:57 AM
Reminds me of the father and son in Gentleman's Agreement (I'm really dating myself here), where they were pretending to be Jewish to understand the effects of prejudice first-hand. At one point someone said to the kid "Don't worry about what they say. It's not true. You're not really Jewish." And someone else wisely pointed out "And what if he were? Would they still have a right to make those comments?"  What if she did like to get a little freaky now and then? Not that we'd ever know, but I'm just saying. Would that be grounds for dumping our fandom? Because she'd still be the same girl who lends her name and time to charitable organizations and loves her parents and wants to settle down and have kids and all that good mainstream virtuous stuff. Don't mind me, I'm just curious.



I think the question isn't what kat does behind closed doors but the image she projects publically.  The former is none of our business, the latter is what kat is putting out there and will be publically judged by. I think Kat has done a pretty good job of seperating those two and being aware of keeping everything as what she perceives as "good taste."

She didn't seem to be completely comfortable with Stuff or the album cover, and my concern is that she's able to make the tough choices so at the end of the day she is always comfortable.  A lot of this stuff isn't black and white... she may have obligations to others as she's an entertainment property of sort, and what's OK and what isn't OK isn't always clear. Nicole Kidman is on the cover of Vanity Fair right now ripping off her shirt and exposing herself in a bra. Kidman is highlighly respected, as is the magazine. I'm not sure I even know what I think is OK anymore.

I'm sure Kat will always be having to make some tough decisions throughout her career, being the attractive woman she is. I think she's done a pretty good job so far of handling these decisions.


I think this sort of misrepresents the facts a bit here.  Katharine was perfectly comfortable with the SexyHair pictures in the context of a promotion for hair products, period.  However, when the decision was made to take the SexyHair photo shoot of her in a shorter than short shirt/sweater with half her ass hanging out of it she didn't think THAT was appropriate for her debut album cover until the shirt was elongated by the touch up artists.

Likewise,  the concept of doing a Stuff magazine shoot was the problem.  To her mind possibly a magazine that objectifies women and the likes of which she had singled out in a previous interview with Entertainment Weekly as being "not like" the Shape magazine cover.  Moreover, she said, jokingly, that she would do something like that when her "career hit the skids' or words to that effect.  I don't think the actual photos were ever the problem but rather the context (being in Stuff magazine) and the hypocritical (having gone on the record  all but slamming that type of shoot) aspects of it that bothered her.
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09/12/2007 12:22 PM Alert 
Posted By CRB on 09/12/2007 12:16 PM
Posted By kenneth on 09/12/2007 11:36 AM
Posted By groucho on 09/12/2007 10:57 AM
Reminds me of the father and son in Gentleman's Agreement (I'm really dating myself here), where they were pretending to be Jewish to understand the effects of prejudice first-hand. At one point someone said to the kid "Don't worry about what they say. It's not true. You're not really Jewish." And someone else wisely pointed out "And what if he were? Would they still have a right to make those comments?"  What if she did like to get a little freaky now and then? Not that we'd ever know, but I'm just saying. Would that be grounds for dumping our fandom? Because she'd still be the same girl who lends her name and time to charitable organizations and loves her parents and wants to settle down and have kids and all that good mainstream virtuous stuff. Don't mind me, I'm just curious.



I think the question isn't what kat does behind closed doors but the image she projects publically.  The former is none of our business, the latter is what kat is putting out there and will be publically judged by. I think Kat has done a pretty good job of seperating those two and being aware of keeping everything as what she perceives as "good taste."

She didn't seem to be completely comfortable with Stuff or the album cover, and my concern is that she's able to make the tough choices so at the end of the day she is always comfortable.  A lot of this stuff isn't black and white... she may have obligations to others as she's an entertainment property of sort, and what's OK and what isn't OK isn't always clear. Nicole Kidman is on the cover of Vanity Fair right now ripping off her shirt and exposing herself in a bra. Kidman is highlighly respected, as is the magazine. I'm not sure I even know what I think is OK anymore.

I'm sure Kat will always be having to make some tough decisions throughout her career, being the attractive woman she is. I think she's done a pretty good job so far of handling these decisions.


I think this sort of misrepresents the facts a bit here.  Katharine was perfectly comfortable with the SexyHair pictures in the context of a promotion for hair products, period.  However, when the decision was made to take the SexyHair photo shoot of her in a shorter than short shirt/sweater with half her ass hanging out of it she didn't think THAT was appropriate for her debut album cover until the shirt was elongated by the touch up artists.

Likewise,  the concept of doing a Stuff magazine shoot was the problem.  To her mind possibly a magazine that objectifies women and the likes of which she had singled out in a previous interview with Entertainment Weekly as being "not like" the Shape magazine cover.  Moreover, she said, jokingly, that she would do something like that when her "career hit the skids' or words to that effect.  I don't think the actual photos were ever the problem but rather the context (being in Stuff magazine) and the hypocritical (having gone on the record  all but slamming that type of shoot) aspects of it that bothered her.




I don't see how I misrepresented the facts.


She didn't seem to be completely comfortable with Stuff or the album cover.   

All that statement says is that she wasn't completely comfortable with stuff, or the album cover, both of which you seem to believe as well.  As far as what she wasn't comfortable with Stuff -- whether it's the photos or the magazines -- that's all spectulative. Speculation is good, but I think we'd need more to go on then we have in the case of Stuff.


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09/12/2007 7:13 PM Alert 
Posted By kenneth on 09/12/2007 11:36 AM

I think the question isn't what kat does behind closed doors but the image she projects publically.  The former is none of our business, the latter is what kat is putting out there and will be publically judged by.

I think to some people that is very much the question because they perceive her as somehow endorsing anything she portrays. If she didn't, at least to an extent, she wouldn't be able to (photographically) get in the swing of things so well. It's like there's an implied criticism that gets projected onto the viewing public ("THEY might get the wrong idea") but the point is really "Why did you put yourself in this position to begin with?" I see what you mean but I'm just reading some kind of subtext in there... and I don't want to make any more out of it.

Personally I just don't care for these ultra-stylized shoots because they don't even look like her, to me. Even pregnant, she still looks like herself, but I see these shoots as disguising her rather than enhancing her. They're interesting as art, but just not my cup of tea. They don't shock me or give me the willies, they just aren't my favorite look for her. Except that the one with arms and legs all akimbo looks like she should have a chalk mark around her so the cops can mark the scene of the crime. Now that does give me the creeps.


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09/12/2007 8:23 PM Alert 
On the topic of Kat being "comfortable" with the Stuff shoot. I seem to remember and interview where she said she was comfortable seeing previous cover poses but they did her shoot with a kind of 60's stylized flair and that made her feel better about it (not a direct quote).

in my mind the ultimate "Idol" contestant of the pre-lapsarian era, the one who most perfectly combined the demands for relentless emotive singing and the wow factor -- Katharine McPhee
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09/12/2007 9:02 PM Alert 
Posted By CRB on 09/11/2007 11:23 PM
To Diehard: I really do appreciate your starting this topic because I like to see a diversity of opinions expressed and I believe opinions strongly felt, as yours clearly are, are what keeps a place like this active and interesting.

Perhaps the day will come when we all become of one mind on every  subject such that we we can simply  post an, "Amen."  or   in response to a position stated.  When and if that day comes, it truly will be a sad moment for us all. But until then, through the sometimes less than pretty process of sharing our thoughts, I'll continue to enjoy "suffering" the opinions of my fellow KMF members quite gladly.



Totally agree with this. I like reading the dissenting opinions, actually. DiehardKatFan, there is some level of self-censorship going on. I'll admit to measuring my words sometimes, when I'd rather flat-out opine that a particular performance or photoshoot didn't turn out very well. (What can I say, I'm a perfectionist type; as a kid, I never liked it when somebody complimented me after a subpar game or recital, even if my talent level didn't justify holding to a high standard.) It's not that the mods wouldn't tolerate it, but other fans might take it the wrong way. We're all still fans, so we should be able to speak more freely, but that's just how fan boards are, I guess. I'm glad you were comfortable enough to speak your mind, even though I disagreed with most of your commentary. (BTW, I do think most of the responses have been respectful.)

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09/12/2007 10:33 PM Alert 
Posted By DiehardKatfan on 09/11/2007 8:45 PM
OH MY GOD! Lets all agree to disagree! I said at the bottom of my post that I was MOVING ON! I don't care about it anymore, I"m going to focus