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Subject: AOL sessions now up on Time Warner Cable - In Demand
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Username: Bigshady
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05/20/2007 11:37 PM Alert 
Thanks to "Katharine McIdol" on IDF for the heads-up.  For those who have Time Warner cable you can now view the AOL sessions through VOD (Video On Demand).  Supposedly the OI music video is up on there as well, although I couldn't find it.
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05/20/2007 11:59 PM Alert 
diff what would be the best way for Big Shady or anyone else to go about capping copy protected digital content.  We sort of need another one of your world class, step-by-step, tutorials for this process.

Shady has said that he has neither a s-video input on his computer or a DVD recorder, so your recommendation on an economical path to getting this done would be helpful too.

I have Fox Reality on my Dish Network box and I have, in the past,  used the S-video out to make S-VHS recordings of the Discovery HD content that come out very nice.  I would like to take some of the Fox Reality remix material off my DVR using this technique to  a DVD recorder so I can use any information you post as well.
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05/21/2007 1:10 AM Alert 
Posted By CRB on 05/20/2007 11:59 PM
diff what would be the best way for Big Shady or anyone else to go about capping copy protected digital content.  We sort of need another one of your world class, step-by-step, tutorials for this process.

Shady has said that he has neither a s-video input on his computer or a DVD recorder, so your recommendation on an economical path to getting this done would be helpful too.

I have Fox Reality on my Dish Network box and I have, in the past,  used the S-video out to make S-VHS recordings of the Discovery HD content that come out very nice.  I would like to take some of the Fox Reality remix material off my DVR using this technique to  a DVD recorder so I can use any information you post as well.


"economical"? Shady, if you already own a digital camera, point it at the TV and hit record.

Option 2 would be a video capture card for the computer I suppose. I have a videocard that can capture, but it's definitely not economical. The only experience I have is with an ATI All-in-Wonder. It has S-video and composite ("RCA-type") connectors. I think I used Virtualdubmod to capture but the card should come with software to do an analog cap. It can be done but as they say, once you go digital cap, it's hard to go back.

Obviously Shady wouldn't necessarily want to give up his current videocard, so there should be specialty capture cards that hopefully are inexpensive. I'd be willing to bumble my way along with you guys figuring it out. It should be doable.

There's a point where a little more $ (or more than a little $) would get you a DVD recorder though. Something to weigh. With a DVD recorder you just hook up cable box to DVD-rec with S-vid, record, transfer to DVD, rip DVD on computer, and at that point you'd pick up as though you had a Firewire TS.

Much easier (!) than analog: install cap card, software, optional other capture codec, pray, etc. Another thing is, with analog your computer has to be able to capture and encode (not necessarily the final encode method) in real-time, something that the DVD-recorder does much better with dedicated hardware. The computer is affected by other programs running. For example, IDF really bogs down my computer, dunno about you guys. It could cause an analog cap to drop frames. Then (I think) you'd get audio/video sync issues you'd have to deal with. So then you'd have to close down some programs while you do a real-time cap (1 hour program you say? Unburden your computer for 1 hour). I much prefer letting some other hardware do the capturing while I fiddle away on the computer.

Maybe we should price capture cards, and DVD recorders while we're at it. I haven't looked at either in awhile.

(Was that long enough?)


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05/21/2007 1:19 AM Alert 
Boy, that DVD recorder's starting to look real good right about now!  Mayhaps I should investigate that option first.  Can you recommend one or two I should look at?
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05/21/2007 10:40 AM Alert 
There are a bunch of DVD recorders out there J & R has about 20 different ones and Huppin's (aka Onecall) has 10 different ones.

What's the difference in all the models: Price and features, obviously.  Prices range from about $100 (off brand)  up to a bit less than $400 for a DivX compatible with a 300MB hard drive built in.

For what you are doing all that you need is a basic model, I think practically any model will let you import S-video analog, but we won't assume that.

Features that might matter (or might not matter)

>>Some models play computer formats such a DivX and WMV straight to your television.  This is the feature that made me buy a DVD recorder, playing Vinman's files away from the computer.  They look great on TV, too.

>>Some models "upconvert" video from 480p to 720p (or 1080i)  but this will only make a difference if you use the digital output and have a big screen. 

>>Some of the DVD recorders have hard drives built into the recorder that let you do rough edits, like take out commercials before you burn a DVD.  For people that archive TV shows this is a great feature.

>>Some newer models have digital (ATSC) over-the-air tuners that will let you make SDTV 480p recordings of TV broadcasts.  Copyright flags still apply so no hard drive on these models that I can see. I would assume you could still edit the files with a computer though.

So just looking at what is out there I'd say a  Panasonic DMR-ES15 would do the job that you want and you cant get it from a major retailer for ~$150 or from eBay (new) for ~$110. Has front and rear S-video inputs and a pretty basic feature set.

Open box and used ones on eBay are, of course, much cheaper but  eBay is, as always, a roll of the dice. 

The number of choices in DVD recorders  has dropped precipitously in the last 6 months.   When I bought mine before X-mas last year there were  over  100 different namebrand models out there and now not nearly so many.  It looks like the phase out has begun.

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05/21/2007 10:45 AM Alert 
Wow. that's great for Time warner cablethanks for the heads up post

Some people come into our lives and quickly go.Others stay for a while and leave footprints on our hearts and we are never the same. That my friends is Katharine McPhee
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05/21/2007 11:05 PM Alert 
Thanks for the info, CRB.  I'll have to do some checking to see what I want beyond what I'll need for this project.  I'd hate to buy a cheapo and then later wish I'd just gone ahead and got the one with all the features that I could make good use of.  On the other hand if they're being phased out I might not want to invest to deeply in some soon-to-be obsolete equipment.
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05/27/2007 6:55 PM Alert 
does anyone has the VOB videos????
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05/27/2007 7:16 PM Alert 
Shady is investigating. So, no not yet. The Teen Nick Over It is up for you though diego.
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05/28/2007 2:47 AM Alert 

Well at this point I don't really know what use I'll have for a DVD recorder beyond capping what I can't get over firewire and transferring some stuff over that I have on VHS, so I went ahead and ordered the Panasonic unit you suggested, CRB.  Should be here by Friday.

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06/03/2007 5:46 PM Alert 
In anticipation of your shipment...

I looked up the manual for the DMR-ES15 and found it here:
DMR-ES15S Downloads

I don't know what the "S" means at the end of the model but everything that follows assumes the one you got is the DMR-ES15S.

The manual says the recorder comes only with a DVD-RAM disc. Does your DVD drive on your computer read that format? If not, you'll need another format disc. From page 4, you can use VR mode with DVD+RW discs but not DVD-RW discs.

I prefer VR mode because when you use the recorder to burn in that format, you just open the DVD on your computer, copy the file, then rename the file to .MPG. At that point, the various software I use treats it like any other MPEG-2 mpg file.

If you use DVD-VIDEO mode instead of VR, you end up with a DVD that's like a commercial DVD. If you take it to your computer, you rip the DVD first, end up with VOB files and then work from there. I guess it doesn't matter whether you use VR or VIDEO mode, since AVI.NET handles VOBs. For DVD ripping, others here can give good recommendations. DVD Decrypter?

To connect your cable DVR to the new DVDR, S-video gives higher quality than the composite cables that come with the recorder. Doesn't look like an S-vid cable comes with the recorder. For audio, looks like the traditional composite cables are the only choice, which is the typical way anyway.

Might be a good idea to wait before buying accessories, if necessary, until you have the recorder's manual in-hand just in case it's different from the manual linked here.
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06/07/2007 8:39 PM Alert 

Ok, I have the DVDR unit set up with S-Video cable and DVD+RW disc.  Now I just have to figure out how to record in VR mode?  I tried recording, just setting it for 20 minutes and then playing performances back to back.  When I went to copy the files to my computer they were .vob files.  Also for some reason it split the recording into two files.  The smaller of which I was able to import to DGindex but not the other.

One major bummer is the quality in which this is "broadcast".  It's not that good.

ETA: It looks like it split the files due to size.  The first file is 0.99GB (almost 4 full songs), the smaller is 288MB.  I'm assuming it automatically splits right before the 1GB mark.

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06/07/2007 10:42 PM Alert 

Over It: http://www.sendspace.com/file/om4tqi

The smaller clip contained OI uncut so I went ahead and put that one up so you can see what we're dealing with.  It says the pic size is 640 but it plays in WS?  I wonder if it has anything to do with the settings on the DVDR, which asks if your TV is 4:3, or as mine is 16:9.  You guys no I'm not the brightest bulb...maybe you can figure it out.

Diff, get in here before I make even more of an ass out of myself!  

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06/07/2007 11:41 PM Alert 
Shady that is great. Do them like that and I'm a pig in mud.

Huge upgrade over the FLV rip in that it is in a widescreen aspect ratio. And that is a big plus even if the vid is softer than we HD nuts are used to.  Your specs:

Video: DivX 5 640x368 29.97fps 3909Kbps [Video  0]
Audio: Dolby AC3 48000Hz stereo 384Kbps [Audio  1]



The VR stuff diff will have to sort. But that look great, IMO.
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06/08/2007 1:59 AM Alert 
Good job! I haven't seen it yet, but specs look good to me!

What matters most for quality is the recording mode: XP, SP, LP, or EP. XP is the highest quality. ~1 hour per 4GB DVD. I always go for XP.

VR vs VIDEO mode (vob) shouldn't matter. It's just a different packaging format. The content inside is the same.

VR Mode
For mine, I can manually initialize/format the disc as VR. If I don't manually initialize, it defaults to recording as DVD-VIDEO (vob). For yours, page 34 in the online PDF manual describes formatting. I don't see any mention of VR vs VIDEO for DVD+RW, but as expected for DVD-RW it says only VIDEO is possible. I'll read a little more.

File sizes
Mine splits to multiple files too at ~1GB each. VR mode makes 1 giant file.

Why 640 horizontal?
DVD width is 720, but it uses non-square pixels. The pixels are wider than they are tall. When you make the DivX encode, it makes square pixels by squeezing the horizontal 720 to 640. The vertical is 368 because you need a ratio of ~1.77 (640/368 = 1.74, close enough!) for widescreen and a multiple of 16 for mpeg-4 (DivX/XviD)

All this babbling and my dl is finished! Beautiful! Thank you for your financial investment and sharing these treasures!
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06/08/2007 8:59 AM Alert 

Phew!  Ok, glad you guys liked it.  I'll try to get the other ones done tonight.  Two things I couldn't figure out.

1) When I played back the mpg it had large black strips on all four sides of the vid.  It played in WS format, but it didn't use the whole screen.  The avi did though.

2) Any idea why DGindex wouldn't let me import the 0.99GB file?  Is it just too big, or do you think there was an error of some kind?

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06/08/2007 11:56 PM Alert 

I'm so exhausted.  I'm going to bed.  But I'll leave you with this question.

Why can't I import the VOB into DGindex?????

.

.

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06/09/2007 2:03 AM Alert 
Posted By Bigshady on 06/08/2007 11:56 PM

I'm so exhausted.  I'm going to bed.  But I'll leave you with this question.

Why can't I import the VOB into DGindex?????

.

.

I've been putting together another long post. sorry shoulda told you earlier! 

Posted By Bigshady on 06/08/2007 8:59 AM

Phew!  Ok, glad you guys liked it.  I'll try to get the other ones done tonight.  Two things I couldn't figure out.

1) When I played back the mpg it had large black strips on all four sides of the vid.  It played in WS format, but it didn't use the whole screen.  The avi did though.

2) Any idea why DGindex wouldn't let me import the 0.99GB file?  Is it just too big, or do you think there was an error of some kind?

The black on the left and right is a little worrisome. You could be losing a lot of resolution because of them.  I'll suggest some things to try in a sec. First, about the 1GB VOBs, and possibly a fix for the DGindex problem...

Are you using DVDDecrypter to copy the VOBs to the hard drive? You can set it to create 1 big VOB instead of 1GB or smaller pieces. Exceeding the 1GB limit violates the DVD-video standard but what do we care? We're just using it to extract the MPEG-2 video from it. 1 big VOB may be ok for DGindex.

To make 1 big VOB using DVD Decrypter
"Using DVDDecryptor: DVDDecryptor in IFO mode has an option to combine all the VOB files for a program as a single large VOB file when it copies them to the hard drive.  Since a program like DVDDecryptor is the fastest way to transfer VOB files to your hard drive., this is probably the easiest way of creating a single large VOB file. For additional information, please see this How-To guide"
http://www.videoredo.com/FAQs/ExtractStreamsFromDVD.htm

(excerpt from http://www.videoredo.com/FAQs/SupportFAQDVDEdiitingAuthoring.htm)

Attempts to fix left/right blackness
A few Qs when you did the first OI:
* What is the cable box (not the DVD recorder) output ratio? 16:9? 4:3?

* When you watch OI on your TV, do you see the flickering when the camera pans from right to left, from Jaco (sp?) to Kat at around 20 - 24 seconds in your AVI? If it looks ok on the TV, it might be due to the resizing or the deinterlacing in avi.net.

* What video stats in the Information window show up in DGIndex during its conversion?
  Frame Size, Aspect Ratio, Frame type
Compare the stats when you do the tests below.

For each of the following tests, you can do a short test record of one of the songs to the hard drive of the recorder. Be sure to keep track of which item on the DVD recorder hard drive corresponds to which test. I ended up confusing myself once by not doing that.

Then transfer it to DVD+RW, and then onto your computer hard drive to view the mpg and see if it's fixed.

Before starting each test, erase the DVD+RW according to the DVD recorder instructions on page 34 "Deleting all contents of a disc -- Format Disc (DVD)"

*TEST 1: Change the cable box output ratio (16:9 or 4:3)
*TEST 2: Change the DVD recorder output ratio. However I don't think the DVDrecorder setting affects the mpg you end up with, just TV viewing.

That's all I can think of for now. I thought I had another test in mind but I can't remember now.

Good luck!

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06/09/2007 8:08 PM Alert 
Posted By differentlife on 06/09/2007 2:03 AM
The black on the left and right is a little worrisome. You could be losing a lot of resolution because of them.  I'll suggest some things to try in a sec. First, about the 1GB VOBs, and possibly a fix for the DGindex problem...

Are you using DVDDecrypter to copy the VOBs to the hard drive? You can set it to create 1 big VOB instead of 1GB or smaller pieces. Exceeding the 1GB limit violates the DVD-video standard but what do we care? We're just using it to extract the MPEG-2 video from it. 1 big VOB may be ok for DGindex.
-I haven't used any decrypters.  I never have before.  I've just opened the files and selected "Copy this file" to copy to Crive

To make 1 big VOB using DVD Decrypter
"Using DVDDecryptor: DVDDecryptor in IFO mode has an option to combine all the VOB files for a program as a single large VOB file when it copies them to the hard drive.  Since a program like DVDDecryptor is the fastest way to transfer VOB files to your hard drive., this is probably the easiest way of creating a single large VOB file. For additional information, please see this How-To guide"
http://www.videoredo.com/FAQs/ExtractStreamsFromDVD.htm

(excerpt from http://www.videoredo.com/FAQs/SupportFAQDVDEdiitingAuthoring.htm)

Attempts to fix left/right blackness
A few Qs when you did the first OI:
* What is the cable box (not the DVD recorder) output ratio? 16:9? 4:3?
-Well it plays in WS on the TV with black strips on top and bottom only.  I assume 16:9 fits the screen perfectly so...I'm already confused.

* When you watch OI on your TV, do you see the flickering when the camera pans from right to left, from Jaco (sp?) to Kat at around 20 - 24 seconds in your AVI? If it looks ok on the TV, it might be due to the resizing or the deinterlacing in avi.net.
-It doesn't look to smooth on the TV either.

* What video stats in the Information window show up in DGIndex during its conversion?
  Frame Size, Aspect Ratio, Frame type
Compare the stats when you do the tests below.

-DGindex stats:
DGindex.jpg

For each of the following tests, you can do a short test record of one of the songs to the hard drive of the recorder. Be sure to keep track of which item on the DVD recorder hard drive corresponds to which test. I ended up confusing myself once by not doing that.

-Wait, you can record to the DVDR's hard drive before transferring to disc???

Then transfer it to DVD+RW, and then onto your computer hard drive to view the mpg and see if it's fixed.

Before starting each test, erase the DVD+RW according to the DVD recorder instructions on page 34 "Deleting all contents of a disc -- Format Disc (DVD)"

*TEST 1: Change the cable box output ratio (16:9 or 4:3) -I don't know if it'll let me do this.  I can't find anything in the setup menu.
*TEST 2:
Change the DVD recorder output ratio. However I don't think the DVDrecorder setting affects the mpg you end up with, just TV viewing.

That's all I can think of for now. I thought I had another test in mind but I can't remember now.

Good luck!

^I made some notes above in red.  Hopefully it clears some things up.

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06/09/2007 10:09 PM Alert 

I upped the mpg so you could see what the source looks like.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/g1h0fd

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06/10/2007 12:14 AM Alert 
Shady, could you up source mpg on these Sessions too?  I'd really like to have them just as they came out of the box.  That mpg looks nicer than the AVI that I got from you the other day, btw.  Did you change any settings?  
Of course, if you can figure out what is putting those black bands up the sides and expand the frame of the  video all the better.